So, I was found guilty; again... timeframes are really harsh for me. I'm not sure, but it was two days later that they brought me back for sentencing. Pre-sentencing was quite entertaining for me, actually. I used that word because I expected it to be quite involved, being such a heinous charge and the fact that they're dealing with, you know, a murder conviction... And the timeframes can be quite large. So, you would expect that they would go into a lot of detail to understand the profile of the person that they're about to sentence. Your lawyers give you a little spiel, you know like this person is blah, blah, blah. I don't remember a great deal being said, and I only think there’s, you know, like, 'the whole time I've been incarcerated, I've been a model inmate', blah, blah, blah, right? I don't believe too much was mentioned about my previous history. There were no character references brought into it, which I felt maybe there should have been....
Theoretically, they should consult you and members of your family, your friends to create something like the profile of who you are...
Well, they could not because I was found guilty on Monday night, and I was sent... I think it was a Monday; I was found guilty on the Monday or Tuesday morning, one of the two. And then, Wednesday afternoon, I was sentenced. It was like glitches of 36 - 48 hours, basically. So, how much information could have been collected? And I don't know who collected it. All I know is my lawyers did a little a little spill in consideration for the sentencing.... obviously, the judge felt like I'd been found guilty. He didn't say it, but he's comments indicate it... he's given me the least amount of time that he could for that charge. So that's how I got the 15 years. Because I don't think he agreed with the outcome. (...) So again, how much was really put into identifying me as a person?
And how much into identifying you as the mother?
Not much. Not much.
So, at this stage, this is the year 2000...?
Oh, hang on. 2000. So, I went IN in 2017. So, this must have been 2019.
So, you didn't put (those dates)... Don't you have it in your mind?
Yes, it's all very...(blurry) I know that I was basically there for five years. I know it took me two years to go to court, and I know that we had a mistrial, and I know it took nearly six months to get back to court. And I know that we're a week and a half into the first trial when we found the evidence that they had been given, and I can give you snapshots. For most of the six weeks, I was on trial the second time around. I have so many blanks. I can't even tell you. There are so many things I can't tell you.
Your son is still living with you at that stage, or he's already out of the house.
He was in his own home at that time.
How old he was?
He had just turned 19. It was just after his 19th birthday. And he just had his son as well. He had his son; he was just about to turn one. So, this all happened two days after my grandson's first birthday...
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So, at this stage, did you? How did you process this whole? What happened in relation to saying no to your loved ones?
I couldn't; I was in Incommunicado detention. I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone; they locked me down. They told me I could have support.
What support were you allowed to have?
I have a lawyer (...); I was allowed to (have) a support person because it was just an interview. That was just an interview to try and establish what's happened to him (the husband, once missing and then found - murdered), not at any time that they were accusing me of anything. They led me to believe that they just wanted to chat and get it on record.
So, you're on your own.
I am on my own.
You had the right to call your lawyer.
Well, I didn't think I needed one. (...) I was thinking: I've got nothing to hide. (...) Obviously, it was survival mode at the time. Then, the minute I knew that they actually had him in custody (the suspected killer), I told them what I could.
You do not even entertain that someone has just killed your husband. You know about questioning that person. I'm sorry, it wouldn't be the sensible thing to do. We'll just go with whatever we need to. So, keep my mouth quiet. You know, once I knew he was locked up all of a sudden, I felt safer, which was probably a bad move. If only I had had a lawyer there the whole time... (but) what he said, "they got you", to say enough to create the story they needed. So, just before they took me, they finished the interviews. I told them as much as I could, but they weren't satisfied with that. And they kept saying, tell us where (he is), and I said I didn't even know (that) he was actually dead at this stage (but) I was actually charged and sent to Risdon. Six days on Friday, so this was on Monday... or I think on Tuesday, I was taken into remand. I got charged on Friday. They still hadn't actually found a body, so they didn't know for sure who was dead. But they were charging me with this crime. I was brought up (this way) if you've got nothing to hide - why do you need protecting? My ignorance... they should be on a certain level of crime; I feel like... they should not be allowed to talk to you without a lawyer present. My family certainly was not contacted.
They didn't contact your family. Who was available? Do you have parents?
My mom was my dad had just had not long (time ago) passed away...
And they were willing to cooperate...
They would have... my mom, my brother... I had many... persons, my old boss (...) she'd actually prewritten a character reference. They never even got that...
What about your son?
My son would have absolutely. No one was contacted, to get any idea of me as a person, as a mom, as an employee, as someone in society as...My lawyers did a portion of that pro bono, and they ended up doing my appeal pro bono because, obviously, I had no money. So, I lost my house and all this...
And your lawyer didn't initiate this idea to create your personal and social profile.
Well, they obviously gave a brief description.
But how do they (managed) accumulate this information?
Only (based on) what they know of me through questioning.
Through you questioning you about yourself...
Yeah, but only over my time of... (in relation to) ‘my crimes,’ so all they did was offer that... "Well, you know, she's been compliant whilst in prison. She worked in the society."
Yes, but this is your time in prison, not before being arrested.
Yes. So, all they did was take snapshots of what came out of me through the trial, not actually what I expected. I felt that there should have been probably a month or something of them collecting data, and the courts collecting data, to then make a decision based on...
This is what it should be...
Yes. So, in my situation, I don't know if mine was different, and this is something I can't comment on because I've not been (exposed) to the system before. I don't know if there is any difference in my situation because they never thought that this charge would stick, and they knew that I was appealing because we made that quite well known when they wouldn't drop the charge. So, I don't know if that (is) the stock standard...
So, I understand that they knew that the relationship (with the husband) was abusive.
Well, that came through...
And it kind of fits (into) the picture to create the motive.
Yes. Everything, I think, they got from me, they used against me.
So, the first trial that we're at was a mistrial with the hidden evidence that turned up that we showed them. So, everyone expected me to get a downgrade after that, and it never happened. We had the second trial; they went on to me in a totally different way. I was found guilty and given 15 years, and then I appealed it. And the appeal took an excessive amount of time because it was COVID. And then they dismissed... and acquitted me of the murder but then charged me with an accessory. (Comment: An accessory is a person who assists but does not actually participate in the commission of a crime). And then downgraded it to six years with fixed my time in prison made everything look sweet on paper. Thank you very much, see you later.
Throughout my court case (descriptions) of me - caring, compassionate, hardworking and ‘didn't drink’. It was fairly obvious. I didn't have any addictions and never did drugs and don't drink - came out through my court case continually, even in the first one...
From the moment you are actually sentenced, you are in prison... to what extent could you stay in touch with your son, with your parents?
Obviously, I hadn't; I had family members, and my sister came to the courts because Facebook can tell it; it all gets out there pretty damn quick. And they obviously didn't want everyone to find out by Facebook and Telly before they knew, and everyone wanted to come in, and I said, I do not want you in the court.
Why?
Because I didn't need them to have the trauma and to see me going through something that they couldn't control. Because I was not good in there. Yeah.... And it's like, they've been through enough. They don't need to see anymore... (Veronica is crying). For me, I didn't want it because I could see the pain in their eyes. And I knew that I was 'okay', but to have them have to see me... And then they don't get to talk to me. And it could be hours before I get back to the prison and make a phone call. This means that I couldn't reassure them that even though I'm like this here, I'm okay. And so, the less they were there, the happier I was. Sometimes, my sister just ignored me and wouldn't listen. And my brother came too... He obviously came when I first went in, but I just said I don't want... And most of them were really good at respecting those wishes.
Your mum?
No, I wouldn't let my mom in.
Did she want to come?
She probably did. But she also understood, and I think if I'd asked for her to be there, she would have, but I didn't want her there. And she respected that. So, I didn't get to speak to a family member for four or five days. I was taken off for an interview and never came home. My son just told me the other day that he had a call (about his mum being arrested), and he'd gone straight down to my house to get me clothes and my Ugg boots, which were one of my favourite possessions and (he was) ready for me to come home that night, waiting to pick me up. He never got to pick me up... I never came home.
I am sorry...
It’s OK.
Can you say how it affected your son?
He was amazing. I mean, he just lost his dad in horrific... what he'd known as his dad...
So, did he have a bond with his stepfather?
He did. You know, it wasn't till he got older that he realised...
Another thing that I was thinking about in relation to your story is that there was no space for grieving.
No, for any of us...
Because if you have an abusive partner, an abusive relationship is a very strong relationship.
Oh, absolutely. You know, and you don't know how to grieve because it's not that I missed him. There was actually relief in the whole thing. You know, there was this sense of relief, but then no one deserved what happened to him.
It will always be my son and me; we have a very close relationship. (When the arrest of Veronica took place) he just had his son; he needed his parents to help him through life skills (...). There had been a traumatic time with my husband and his girlfriend (...), and the grandson came along, and there was a lot of stuff going on there. This was a time when he was learning to become a man. He was learning life skills. He was learning how to, you know, be a parent himself. He was left on his own overnight. He only had a week off work because he had to provide for his family.
Yes. But also, there was a risk that his partner could have an issue with the whole situation...
Absolutely... she had her mental health issues. And, you know, and he had to just function, you know, as well as wanting to support me, you know, as well as being annoyed at what they've done and what the media was saying, and he had to read all that he had to see that he couldn't get away from it there for the initial few weeks, you know, and people were making comments that were, you know, really in the end, he got rid of Facebook because he got sick of people thinking that they knew what had happened and saying, you know, how, what about the poor son, and he got on there one day, so why am I the poor son and maybe you best not comment on what you don't know.
Did you have anyone (to support you) at this stage? When is it all kind of boiling and happening?
No, there was no support because he was seeing in two lights, because he was a victim of the situation, obviously a victim of what X did, like the murder. But because he still had something to do with me, that put him in a really precarious situation with what support they would offer because I was giving my husband's family a lot of support and, of course, feeding them what they wanted them to know. He was stuck in the middle of all of this because he was still supporting me, you know, he still does have something to do with the family... it is just the unspoken topic, but they liked the look like he's one of them. Not part of me.
Did he have any kind of crisis moments with this?
Yeah, you know, but he just pushed me; he is a lot like me, very stubborn. He just got on and did what he had to do. Because, again, he had to provide for his own family, and his partner didn't work. He was the sole income earner; he didn't have the luxury of being able to have any grief associated with any of it. He said to me he'd never, never seen me cry.. up until that moment. So, to see me not being able to stop crying breaks my heart (crying).
When he went to visit you...
Yeah, it took me two weeks or something to see him. Obviously, I couldn't talk to him on the phone very well, because I couldn't stop crying... And that’s powerless... to see me broken. Because, you know, he couldn't do anything.
In prison... what about contact with your family? Was it possible? How did you navigate that?
Well, again, I didn't really know. I couldn't function for quite a few weeks. Again, thanks to the officers who tried to help me.
What was happening when you didn't think what exactly was happening when you couldn’t function?
I don't remember much of probably the first three months. I can give you a little snapshot. I don't remember the first person I spoke to; I don't remember how I made a phone call. I remember an officer.... sorry (crying)
This officer, was he kind?
Kind...he makes me to... what was shut off. Like I was in Maximum (the level of security in prison) ... It was in two sections. So, there was a North End and South End. And what they did was to put everyone into one end of the prison so that I could go and make phone calls to my mom. And I couldn't do it. And they did it all for me...
Because I didn't, I just couldn't do it. I didn't know how; I was sort of lost at the skill level of being able to take in information. Yeah.
So, those three months, it was just...
Absolute blur. And again, I was probably like this up because I couldn't stop crying. Because I just, and there was no information. There was no support for my family. When I was in remand, and I realised that because it took, they couldn’t reach for my son, no, I rang my son. They gave me about 10 seconds on the phone on that slide, probably 30 seconds on the phone to my son to say, 'I'm not coming'. (not coming back home). I mean, in the remand centre. That's it. (crying).
30 seconds?
It wasn't long, and they stood there. And I wasn't allowed to say anything.
Why so cruel?
Because I was in "incommunicado', they had a court order, so I couldn't speak to anyone until they got what they wanted out of me. Then, they extended that to 72 hours, which they could do legally. I only remember snapshots about that. But I remember being told you can't talk to anyone for 24 or 48 hours.
I wasn't allowed to really tell him anything, anything that would happen. I just was allowed to ... because they kept saying: you need to get off the phone, you need to get off. You need to get off the phone... So, and so. So, he rang my sister. And then, between her and my brother, I tried to get information from the remand centre about what we had to do. Like, we need to find a lawyer. What do we need to do? Because we didn't have anything to do with the system and they were unhelpful... and I say, can I bring anything? (After) I was there for four days; I had to ask for a shower. In the end, I just said: can I please have a shower and clean my teeth? Like no toothbrush, no change of your underwear, nothing. You just stuck in there and didn't see a doctor. They had no idea about (my) medications. I hadn't drunk for days; I didn't drink or eat. There was one guy that was so lovely. And because he's, he was at the Supreme Court as well... and he just kept saying to me: please, please drink something... But I think the bigger part is just don't give a shit, you know. And my sister again said (to me) a few months ago: I kept ringing them every day saying, you know: is she okay? And they kept saying, Yep, she's fine. She's sleeping. If she just tells us what she needs, she'll be right. I wasn't sleeping. (crying). I was traumatised, curled up in a ball, crying... So, there was no support... for my family to know what to do and how to help me. Nothing.
And I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone until I was formally charged. When I was charged, I came out. I remember I actually passed down security guys who tried to carry me. And then also - let's make a phone call that afternoon to let my family know I was going to Risdon prison. And then after that, they're on their own again to work out what happened. And it was just lucky that my sister... that one of the officers knew my sister. And when she tried to ring the prison after hours, they put him through to Mary Hutchins, and he gave her as much information as he could, but that was only because he knew him. And the next morning, he was on, so he made sure that he came, and I don't... I don't remember a lot except that he was very kind.
In those three months you mentioned, this is the time you can have contact with somebody from your family...
But it takes a while for them to set that up. So obviously, I don't know what was happening, but they set up my phone with phone numbers and, again, I didn't have my phone. I didn't have access to phone numbers, you know, and I couldn't remember anything. I remember Mom and Dad's, but that's it. So, we had to organise to find out what numbers were for my son and stuff, then set my phone up. And obviously, somehow...
So, they are giving you another phone...
No.
Is it about the list of people that you were allowed to call?
Yeah, you are allowed to have five people. (You have to) Come up with numbers, not just names; you have to actually... I mean, it's obvious that people don’t remember mobile phone numbers... You've got to find a way to get those numbers. Sometimes you can... well, again, I didn't know this, but you can get you might be able to put in a request for them to organise to get your phone and go through numbers to get them off. But that takes time. They already have my sister's number, obviously from when I rang her Remand. So, they managed to get that, and then she managed to help me get numbers to put on the phone.
So, who were your five people?
I had my mum, her... my son, a cousin and my friend from Queensland who was with me at the time that all this was happening. She was still here in Tassie; she stayed because she couldn't go back to Queensland, not knowing what the hell was going on. And the visitors stuff, I don't know how that got sorted. I know I had to sign. Like, they would tell me that someone wants to visit me, and you're allowed ten visitors on your form. But you're only allowed three visits away? Oh, sorry. At that point, there were two visits a week, I think, because I was on remand. Non-contact were my visits. I think one non-contact and one contact, maybe? Again, I can't. I think it was one contact, one 'contact'. But I did one behind the glass. And I said I'm never doing that again. It was hard. It was hard.
Because?
Because of the detachment, you know, like, just couldn't do it.
And that was?
My sister organised all the all the visitor forms, and you just have to approve them and get them approved. So, is it not a quick process to get to visit? Yeah, and then, obviously, your lawyers are separate. So I think you're allowed five visitors. And then you're allowed to make professional visits to, like so, your lawyers or
So, how long did it take them to actually send you from remand to Risdon?
I was in remand on the Tuesday night, and I was sent to Risdon on the Friday night about six, seven o'clock at night.
So it's what, four.
Four days. Yeah, yeah. And that's because they don't want to keep females in Remand.
Why don’t they want females on Remand?
Just because they can't really cater to them. Because you're all in amongst each other. Like there's no real separation. Like all the remand cells are together. So, you're in there, and you're listening to a man carry on screaming and yelling. Often, a lot of them know each other. They don't have bathroom facilities for you to share, and you know, you don't (want) necessarily walk past.
So, I mean, they will keep them, but they don't want to keep them, I found out after some time. They don't like to keep women in remand for any period of time. Like I was in there a long time, and they can't send me they couldn't send me to the women's until I was charged. So, while you're remanded you can't go over. Yeah, until you're actually formally charged.
I felt like I was stuck in a nightmare. And I just felt like I couldn't wake up. And that was probably what it was like for the first three months. It's just like this never-ending nightmare that you couldn't wake up from (...) and I kept thinking it's going to be okay because you had to go to the court every 30 days to be remanded in that first period of time. And then that stretched out to every three months. But so for the first couple of months, I'm like, it's going to be okay. They're going to realise it's going to all get sorted. And then all of a sudden, one day, I had the epiphany that it's not.
12 months into it, I realised it's not going to be okay. And I started to understand the system and how it actually worked by what other inmates’ stories tell you and how to navigate it. But it's a game. (...)
So, to navigate ‘the game” means to actually open up and talk, or do the opposite?
No. How to play the game, what they what you can get to get the less amount of time, you know, plead guilty, you'll get off a lot lighter.
Trying to stay true to your moral values and convictions. It's actually really difficult because that's not what the system is about. It's a game between inmates and the system; who's gonna win?
So, tell me more about this. This is the time after you are realising that you're staying over there. Of course, you have to embrace the whole environment, inmates...
I created an alternate world to function. So I went, I sort of went right, I need to find a happy place. I need to turn this into an environment that creates a sense of normality so that I don't become part of the system. But so, I can get through this. Or I think I would have taken my own life.
Which I couldn't do to my family. So, ignorance is bliss. I already had some good bonds, I guess, with the offices within the environment and their support. So work was what I did, so what I did was to do what I could control and turn it into a normal day. So what I had was start time and finish time. I used their lockdowns as a lunch break in the normal world. I didn't care what I was doing, obviously cleaning, I love organisation. So, I found every single way to create a job structure and structure. So obviously, I was in the kitchen, which was great because I could turn that into hospitality, which was part of my background as well. So that that worked really well because it was an all-day task that I could make all day with prep work. And you know, a lot of people didn't want to work... So, get rid of them. And I would maintain the kitchen in a way that was over the top, probably for the prison, but that gave me something to do constantly.
But I didn't like being with the other inmates because there's a fine line between being left alone or appearing to be part of that group. Because if you weren't, you got ostracised and picked on. And I couldn't deal with that I wasn't equipped to deal with that. So, I needed to be accepted and part of them without being one of them. And that was probably the most draining thing is that mental psychology game of fitting but not becoming part of.
So, then a job within admin came up, which was a trusted position or not already my trust, so they had no hesitation given that to me. But that was only about a 15-minute job a day just packing bad packs. And doing the stores that each week. I turned that into then kept developing that into adding little jobs to it because the officers used to do the uniform orders, but they trusted me to do them. So, then I developed that into making little systems to make that work more efficiently for all of them. I will use some of my skill sets to then create it into a real job.
So, my job went from 15 minutes a day to eight hours a day and more. And I ended up running all these stores, all this stock, doing all the bed packs... I would even do forms and systems up for them and then send them through to the admin, our admin officer, who would then just basically put it on the system.
I ended up setting up their DVD library and running that.
Did they pay you for all this work?
No. I've got the same money.
How much?
I ended up on $47, 50.
A week?
Yeah, yeah. So, I was in one of the high-paying jobs, I guess. And just before I finished up, my supervisor had managed to put me on a different rate. Again, I don't know how she managed it, but I ended up on 57. But that was the last couple of months. For me, even without that money, I would have done it because that created this structure. And if I had any downtime, I was in the sewing room. And because I was the only one allowed in there at the time. So that was another space where I could get away from everyone. I used to see a lot for Tessie Moms, which is a community group that gives socially underprivileged people clothing for kids and stuff like that. So actually, so pyjamas and make quilts and all sorts of stuff. Self-taught, worked. But that meant that at no point did I have downtime between the timer. All that out in time we could get locked down. And that is the only reason that I probably survived and coped and have been able to walk out and function in this world again.
Everything you're telling me – is this also what you were saying to your mom to your son when they were calling or visiting you?
Yeah. It gave us something to talk about, or I could show them, and I was making. So overnight, then, when we were locked down. I couldn't do anything. So, I was making up little photo boards. Like they'd send me photos. I'd paint a board and decorate it.
You mentioned before, some books for your grandson...
Yep. So, and for my grandson, I made up little when he got to four because I stopped him coming in the three because he was taking too much notice of the environment. Then COVID hit, so that made it really easy. So, when he was going to Kinder garden, I was making homework books, so he could practice doing letters and stuff.
Like a handmade book.
Yeah, yeah, well, I could do it on the computer. So I did up like worksheets and you know, like he's an A and then did four boxes and he'd have to do the ad next to it and B or and then I do white mum dad subsidy actually...
So, when your son was visiting, you could give something.
I could sign it out and he could take it home, but I used to mail it so that Saxon was getting mail every week.
It costs extra to do the bigger stuff. But obviously, my family would make sure that I had what I needed. So, I could keep that engagement because, obviously, X was one. And it was like, the biggest thing is how do I keep that connection with him when I'm not seeing him.
So, you know, every week, he was getting something from Nana, you know?
What about Zoom’ meetings?
I couldn't do it; it was too hard. I couldn't deal with the disconnect. If I couldn't touch him, I didn't want to see him.
But you had contact visits.
Yeah. So, your son was coming with his partner...
Yeah, everyone. Yeah...
How often?
First eight months – once every week. And then his partner started to work, so it became a little bit harder because I didn't want X (the grandson) coming into the prison. And they didn't really have babysitting.
Explain to me why you didn't want your grandson to be there.
Because he was really noticing what the prisoners were, you know, he was taking a lot more in, and when they drive past the prison, he will go: oh, that’s Nana's house....
So obviously... and then, luckily enough, COVID hit. And that sort of stopped all visits; we had no contact visits for months...
Phone call was $7.70 per 10 minutes. Where does the average person get that sort of money from? I only got to speak to X once or twice a week because once I rang my sister, my mom, dad, my son, you know, before you know, $50 making phone calls... And I had a lot of lawyers as well. So, for the first couple of weeks, I was there. I had; I think I was going through about $150 (a week) in phone calls because I needed to speak to lawyers, I needed to speak to... my family.
And this is just one phone. How is it organised? It is (the phone) hanging from the wall...
And you just got to wait till it's free and you get to use it. There is one phone... even in the maximum, you can only have about 20 people tops, and there are phones on each end, because they had to separate them... into maximum... just those bad ones from the really bad ones... But up in medium there was one phone for up to 50 people.
So how do you organise it? How do people cope? There's someone else organising it, or the inmates themselves?
No. You have to wait until the phone is free. And you go... here is the phone. Yep.
And obviously, everything's recorded.
All conversations are recorded.
Yep. They can go back and check the conversation... And they can chuck calls down, those trigger words on the system where they... Because they may not listen to you, there's not someone listening, or there's someone there listening the whole time. But security may just tweak into certain there may be someone in particular, they're monitoring, in particular, or there might be word triggers that will sort of bring up so they will listen in, or they'll go back and go over the calls.
So, when people have no money, they can actually maintain a connection to their family...
Exactly. So, they say ‘family connection’. But when I first went in there $7, 70 - a call... so how much connection can you have with family? What if you've got four or five kids, and the average pay is probably $32 - $37,50 (per week). If you're working, if you're not working, you get $15 away. Or you might be on zero dollars.
So, you are slowly shutting up; your world is shrinking.
How do you have family connections? You can’t even make a phone call every day with what the pay is.
You can also write letters...
Yes, A lot of them are illiterate, though; how would they write a letter?
Their world is shrinking.
Exactly.
Did you feel that?
You feel cut off because you know how it is; you might not talk to someone for three months, but you have different relationships in your life that have different values; some are here, some are here... you have different social connections, and you might catch up with someone once every two weeks and someone else once every three months. Or you might have something you want to ask somebody or share. But you can't just pick up the phone and call any number; you have to get approval; you're only allowed to change your numbers once a month.
If you have a mobile and a home line, well, landlines are cheaper, but no one's on a landline these days. But a landline and a mobile take up two spots on your phone list. Then you are missing to talk to someone else... I might need you this week. But next week can be really handy to have you because I have questions and I need to ask some stuff to find out some stuff to help my lawyers to get me out of this situation. But you can't talk to these people... because you can't. And then you get secondhand information. Because you have to say can you please contact and ask them blah, blah, blah. That's not good getting secondhand information.
Have you, along this whole story, lost anyone from your close ones?
I only lost the toxic ones that needed to go.
If anything, I had more of coming back into my space because there were some who weren't convinced that I was in a healthy relationship and couldn't deal with seeing my part of that either. And then those that have distanced, well, then straightaway they reached out. So, it was interesting that I've had toxic people removed...
And just distil it to the essence of good ones...
Yes. And people that, you know, have been in my not necessarily my life recently. But were in our past, come back into my space... But again, there were times when I wasn't sure I was going to survive this situation, yet I had all this support and love... all the rest of it. And there were times where I didn't think I was going to survive it. So how do those people who don't have all those things actually survived?
So, you are saying that the support of the family factor or this, you know, the community, it's crucial for being inside to survive.
It is crucial. And to come out and not go back and re-offend. Yes. Not enough is done there to maintain those relationships with people...
Inside.
Yeah, in a productive way.
10-minute phone calls... so, they cover for 10 minutes, you know, you've only got 10 minutes, and you can't ring back straightaway. This means you can't just finish your call and pick up. Someone else has to make a phone call to at least one other person.
Because there's a queue.
Yeah, potentially at times.
But you can make those phone calls seven days a week.
Yeah.
As long as we can afford it.
Yeah. But, and here's another barrier with that, is that let’s say in Maxi, you're locked six o'clock, right?
Six o'clock. At night?
Yeah, you're locked in your cell, actually. You've got if you've got family members that are actually part of the society and work. How do you actually have a phone call with them? Because they're getting home when you're locked down, and you don't have access to a phone? And in portions of Medium, are you actually locked into yourself? So, how do you actually maintain relationships when you're locked into your cell? When the average person is actually working?
You have to take something and turn it in something else. Like with my mum, because of COVID, she was isolated. So, she was at home; she wasn't out of the house because she was high risk. So, she wasn't doing anything; she didn't have hobbies, and all she does is read books. And I wasn't really doing anything. So I'd have to try and take my day and make it sound like you know, or you know, talk about the sewing. But 10 minutes is a really long time when you have nothing to talk about. But not that you don't want to engage with them. But you've got nothing to share. And you don't want to talk about... the elephant. You pretending that's not happening? Because there's nothing to tell... you’re at the mercy of a system. So, how do you create...
Content...
Content.
I'm so used to only talking for 10 minutes on the phone, I get to the point where I think I've got to give such and such a ring. But I know it's going to be a half-hour an hour. But I'm not climatised that anymore, and I can't do it. So then I have this: I have to actually make myself make the call because I'm already into – oh, I can’t be bothered to be on the phone for half an hour, do it later, then later comes and – well, I will do it tomorrow... Tomorrow comes. I just it's a small portion of my time, but I'm so climatised to 10 minutes that I do anything outside that actually does my head in.
You become institutionalised. And when you think you don't, and I worked really hard not to become. But there are some things it's to impact me greatly. I used to just like once we were locked down overnight, I would go in my room because I didn't want to be around people. I didn't socialise out in front of the telly because I didn't do it at home anyway; that's when I'd make little books for X and do things to engage with my family or make one of my kiddy cards, as I call them, which became a bit of fun and a bit of a joke, just making really childish like cards and send you to the family, to just go by. And the problem I have now is come six, seven o'clock, I actually just want to sit there and not engage anything; I want to be left alone.
You still have it... (after being released from prison).
I still have it... there are times when I really need to just be on my own. And that's very hard back in this environment. And also, back in your house with kids. Like they have, you know, they want to talk, they want to engage, they want to have, and I just I just want to sit there. I'm happy to sit there with people. But I don't want to. I need, and again, that's the institutionalisation, or whatever there is. I didn't have to deal with anyone unless I chose to after six, seven o'clock at night. But didn't want to make a phone call. No one could ring me. This drives me insane.
But did you experience anything like a stigma from the community, the extended community, you know, not those close ones, ‘good ones’, but just the public?
Yeah, again, I have avoided the public stuff. There have been some people who probably have concerns but don't know me. But again, where I've come back to, I'm back in amongst people that are just like, happy to see me. Hence, down here. I have more people who know me; hence, those people who know of me get set straight by me because a lot of people that I know are very well respected by the community; family members are GPs, that sort of thing. Those that have sort of probably had concerns have sort of been set straight because they respect the people that it comes from. It's created this safety net, which is why I feel safe down here.
You know, it's amazing, because we have this buffer around you...
Of protection. Again, so lucky. was brilliant. But again, there is no, there's no allowances with the prison system in helping people come from a normal life. So, the family went through hell and back again, just trying to get basic information on how to support me through this or support all of us and get me the help that I need.
At this level is just not happening...
No, no, there should be someone who can actually help fix that shortfall. Because if you don't know the system, you're in a lot of trouble. So, there needs to be policies and procedures in place to help people get the information they need to stop people like me from ending up a victim of the situation.