(We are analysing the case of one of Emma’s clients, the X, participating in the HIPPY program in Risdon prison)
Could you start from the beginning...
EMMA DILLON: He opted for his child to go into care at the very beginning...
When?
When he knew he was going into custody...I don't know what his sentence was. But it's been like I've known him for about six years. So, it's been a long time. He opted for his child to go into foster care because the child's mother needed to go to rehab. He didn't believe that his family (could handle the responsibility); otherwise, he could have just said, the child can stay with a relative of mine, but he didn't think that they would have the capacity to do that and didn't want to ask. So instead, he said, I'll put my child into care.
How old was (the child) at that stage?
He would have been a baby... Yeah, younger than 12 months, So he (the father) did that. And then he's always stayed in contact with child safety and the carers to the point that there was a really good relationship there for a long period of time. So, the carers would send in reports, photos, things like that.
That would be like official reports or something more personal...
Personal, before the child went to school. Then, he would ask what they would like him to purchase for his child. So, he'd buy clothes and shoes. And then, for birthdays and Christmases, he would have ideas, but he was always running everything through the carer. So, there was always a very respectful relationship there. And the carers will accept it; he maintained visits.
So actually, the whole life (of the child), like the last six years, the father was operating from Risdon prison.
He must be because I think that when I came along, the child would have been about two (years old) and coming in for visits. That was happening with the foster parent; oh no, child safety was bringing the child in.
So, the challenge (for the boy) is to learn that there are all those different people.
So, he (the father) always had a relationship with his child. It was just that child safety would bring (the boy to prison) because they do that for everybody. If the child is under child safety, unless it is kinship care and the kinship carer has permission to take (the child) into the prison, child safety would always be the one to organise the visits.
So, the boy, let's call him the boy.
Yeah.
Well, he's having both foster parents at home and his biological father; there's someone else coming...
Just the carer. Oh, no and ‘the child safety’ (person) depends on the worker available. So, they implemented what was called Transport Workers. I don't know how long ago, let's say four years ago, they might have the same transport worker, as long as they were still working for that service. If they left, he'd get a new worker. So, the child safety workers themselves have changed... well, I reckon five times. So, the transport worker might have stayed the same, but the actual child safety worker, who was there for the child, first and foremost, and yes, supported the carer, they've changed about five times, that I know of, and I know that to be true, one of them went on maternity leave, she was amazing...
We got so far with her, then she left and went on maternity leave, and then other ones keep coming in. And then the child safety system itself has completely changed now where there isn't a carer attached, as in, sorry, a child safety worker, not to confuse between a carer there - isn't a child safety worker, as such attached anymore. Now the children are under a team. So, this is where it got complicated. There might be a specific worker that a parent may contact, which is in this father's case, and he can also contact the team leader. But yeah, it gets messy and hard, kind of like a respite arrangement, if that makes sense. That's what I wanted to say. So instead of a normal child safety arrangement with Child Safety, come in and then remove a child. This was respite where the father said, I know that I'm going into custody; I know it's going to be a period of time... so I do want my child to still have contact with their extended family, the auntie, other siblings... But I also know that they can't take full care of him. So, therefore, I will put him in the respite system, and that's when the foster carer has come in and said, well, I will raise the child in the meantime, but the issue has been with the carers themselves...
I understand the same person from the beginning.
Yes. So, the carer has raised a child from a baby up to the age of six currently as their own. So, of course, there's attachment. The issue has been, sadly, in hindsight, I think the carer needed a lot more support... And this is where things have fallen. And this is new to both the father and me. So, in the last 12 months, things started to go pear-shaped. So that contact that I was talking about where the carer would contact the father in prison and give photos and give reports and be supportive of visits and stuff like that all of a sudden visits and stuff because getting close to dad being released, visits and stuff were being sporadic. The carer was making up reasons as to why the child couldn't go.... It might have been that they were saying (that the child) was sick all the time, with no medical evidence, because I understand child safety does have to cancel at times. So, this wasn't the case. So that was happening. And then the carer, she started to get more and more distant from the father because I believe she was getting scared that she was going to lose this child. And she's seeing him as her child, even though it's not her child. There is no 18-year order or anything like that. It's been a six-month respite order at a time.
What happened when the father realised something was happening that was a little bit concerning?
So that's this moment, there are fewer visits...
Did you witness this moment yourself? When he said, Oh, it's just like, I'm losing the contact...
Yeah, I guess so. Because I've had fortnightly contact all along. I was actually weekly last year. And then, fortnightly this year, he was saying that because I would ask him to see the child because they were on my program. And he would say no, got cancelled or whatever. So what he did is he contacted child safety first and foremost, asking what was going on; they weren't giving much information back; then he contacted the child advocate to see what the child wanted because the child kept on saying, I want to see my dad, even though they weren't referring to him as a dad.
So, how was the child calling him (the father)?
By his first name, or daddy, and then his first name.
And then, at home, another daddy...
Yeah, we worked through that because that's pretty normal with kids, as much as it's heartbreaking to a biological parent. It's pretty normal. So, we've worked through that, and that was okay. But then, all of a sudden, there started to be more and more waves that were created, more visits were cancelled, and there was less communication from the carer of the kid, and then the child was coming out with things on visits. So, Mommy says Mommy's Cara, not biological mom. Mommy says that you're in prison; Mommy says that you're a bad person. That whole calling him by his first name, and just lots of mixed messaging. So, the dad then contacted child safety again and raised all that. More recently, what's happened is that the child has been removed from the carer and put into kinship care. So, he's now living with his auntie, which is the dad's sister.
But I remember a few months ago (...) that it was not that certain that the Father was going to win.
No.
So, can you describe this?
Why allegations were made...
It was this kind of power imbalance. Because, I mean, he (the father) is strictly defined by the fact that he's in prison.
Correct.
He's (considered) as being not the best father...
He is a good man.
“The society” sees it differently.
In their opinion... they have said, so one of the things that you do when you work with child safety, and I've done this with many parents, is you ask child safety, what are the worries and concerns? And what do they usually come out with? If they can't pinpoint anything because there haven’t been any child abuse allegations. They say criminal history, and then you're stuck because it's like, well, that's history. But I can say that this dad... the good thing that was happening for him (he always) was that he wanted a good legal representation and to keep himself better whilst he was in prison; he has done the parenting course at least yearly. Not with me with the prisoners. There's another organisation called Connect 42 that runs a circle of security. He's done that. When I worked in the prison, he worked with me to do individual support around parenting, increasing parenting knowledge and skills.
Can you say more about ‘increasing parental know-how’? Can you describe anything specific...
Everything is based on the individual, but I guess we did things based on Signs of Safety, which is child safety; we do words and picture books so the child could know where dad was and what happened in a child-friendly way: why ‘dad is not with you anymore, but he still loves you...”
What is the best child-friendly version to tell?
Say things around, you know, yes, he is in prison and did some stuff like breaking the law; you don't go into specifics... If people have something, for example, which is not, in this case, related to drugs or alcohol, you might say that this wasn't the case. So, instead, it was Dad who broke the law. He loved you very much, those sorts of things.
The truth...
Correct. It has to be honest. Now the problems have been with that story, where six years on, it's happened again, and the carers want the book to change. Now, ideally, a carer has no input; it's not her story to tell. It's the dad story. Only the dad knows the story. She doesn't know it. The only part that is ever mentioned by carers is why you went to live with these people, that they love you very much, and that they're taking care of you. That's all. The carer doesn't get input into this. I don't know why that's what happened in this scenario.
Does the care know the reason that the biological parent went to prison?
Not necessarily. I mean, it's not hard to look it up. (...) But he's never been a risk to the carers if anything has been supporting.
You also mentioned that he has legal representation. So, it means that actually, this father could afford it...
Correct.
What if somebody doesn't have this...
It would go through the child advocate. If it was the child saying I want to be with my parent, and I want to spend more time, I would go through this child outbreak advocate. And they will do, like, impartial interviews on that with kids. But they have to be of an age where they can communicate. Otherwise, you have people like me who will keep pushing child safety and saying it's really important that the child has a bond with their biological parent if it's safe... and I get that some parents should never be in contact. But this wasn't the situation.
So, this is, again, all about how important your work is.
Yeah.
What works in favour of this father is that he was... along the last five or six years of his time (in prison) ... he was actually with people witnessing (what was happening) and the level of his involvement in his parenting.
I agree. And so yeah, even with the individual stuff - it might be things like looking at what happened before and what you are going to plan for when you get out so that that doesn't happen again. So, criminal behaviour stuff might also be a milestone for the child. So, these are what their learning needs will be. This is like, you know, you have to implement structure or that sort of thing. Because if you've never been a parent, you don't know that stuff.
Was he participating as a father before?
This dad has other children, too. He also asked for this child to be interacting with the siblings. That’s only just happened - six years on! He's asked about that from day one; it's only happened.
Why is that?
I can't answer that. I have no idea... child safety reasons. I don't know. But there are not really any reasons... I had interactions with his second youngest, who I think is now eight or nine. They did start having visits together with their dad. So, they love each other. They would; they could not wait to see their brother, who was very cute. And it was two little boys who didn't even know they had a brother. They knew from adult conversations, but they didn't know because they hadn't met their brother. And now they're obsessed with each other. Very, very cute. It's quite lovely. And then yeah, there's a lot more family; there's probably about another five siblings.
I really don't know the father's history. But I thought that he spent so much time on in and out in and out (of prison) and being busy with his long-term criminal activity that he was not participating (in his family life).
No, yeah. He's very, very child-family oriented and always has been... probably not the most positive role model, to be honest. But he's one of many people that I've worked with who will always keep their criminal life separate from their family life. So, they've tried to, and I'm not saying the crime life's good. But yeah, what they've tried to do is they've tried to keep it separate. So, like, if it's money laundering and stuff like that, it's things that the children don't know about, or it might be running a drug ring, for example. I've known plenty of them. But they'll say things like I will. I always made sure I was home for dinner, and I read storybooks to my children. And I made sure every weekend that we went out as a family, and I took them fishing and just like lovely things. And that's why I guess with that one-on-one work with this dad and other people, what I've had to do is have to shift them to understand; I understand that separated, but ultimately, the price is your child isn't living with you. So, ultimately, there is an impact, even though I'm not saying that you weren't a good parent in those other spaces. But it is your choice in life .... and this dad has not got any of his children have ever been in prison. He has structure, and he has people to support his kids.
Are they old enough to go to prison?
Yeah, a lot of them are. Except for the two little ones. Very much so. So, he values work ethic and things like that. So, he'd never bought them into whatever his crime life was. There wasn't that recruiting thing. He wanted his kids to live a life outside of the crime ring, which to me shows clearly in his life; there's been trauma and stuff some way they are because I don't understand... what I'm trying to say is that he knows that it isn't okay, he knows that. He 100% knows that. So exact words are now his boys, the two little ones because they're the ones that are dependent on him. They are more important to him than anything else. So, there have been times in custody over the last six years where he could have lost his ability to apply for parole; he could have gotten more time on his sentence and been charged for other stuff. And he didn't get involved and walked away. Even though his reputation would say he doesn't walk away, he has proved that he walks away because all he wants to do is get out of prison and give those kids a good life as long as he can.
But this is, I understand, not the first time when he goes out and then he goes back in.
I don't think he will this time. I really don't.
Because...
He has way more planning. So, this time in.
He's also older...
Older. And... look, if I were to guess so, I don't know the exact time. But if I was to guess, I'd say this time round has been at least eight years. So, he's had a long time to think and change still, that's a long time. And he's still got until the end of the year before he can go for parole. I have no doubt he has been a model inmate with no trouble, the one that goes to work, does what he needs to do, has gone into courses, or has had insight as well on behaviour. So, he did a course in the prison that was run through planning and reintegration on top of the family stuff, and it shows you surround aggression. And so, making, you know, sporadic choices and decisions. And he did that. And he even said to me, I know now, and I know in my head when I'm going to make a decision that I need to stop and breathe before I react because he was a very reactive person. I've never seen that side of him...
I just know that he's always been lovely to me. I think that that's what happens when you work with people around their children, even if they're not lovely people – they are respectful and kind.
That's why it is so important that correctional services embrace more of the family life...
Agree. Because even when, like if I go, not about him, I used to work with many, many people. And I guess I still do in HIPPY (parenting program inside prison). Nobody else wanted to work there, and in the three years that I actually worked there, I had people say to me, why would you want to work with them? Why would you want to do that? But my mission was that if somebody asked to work with me and they wanted to make a change, I'd support them. If you're wasting my time, and there's no change that's being made. I had so many hundreds of other people that I could work with. So all the people I worked with would say yep, they definitely wanted to make changes. And the reason why people said you would want to work with them is just because they were the really pointy end people. They would cause trouble, and some of their crimes weren't pleasant. There might have been severe family violence, but if the child wasn’t on the thing, I could work with them. Even if the child was so, they weren't going to get contact if they were willing to make a change. We could do stuff. And jail..., like, I can't even go into like the trauma, and some of the horrible things that people had done that... I had worked with was phenomenal, like severe violence. And yes, in an everyday setting within custody, they would play up. And that would be horrible people to be in there around. But they never will like that to me. And I think maybe it's because I gave him the time of the day. I was willing to have a look at - what it is that you want to change and how I can support you in doing that. And how can I support you in being a better parent and having contact with your kid in the future?
I think that because you are working along the lines of the family, you're actually giving them straightaway something - what is - the agency. These clients of yours are non-voluntary clients; they don't want to be there... (in prison). They are there against their will. But you are coming and giving them the chance to actually work along something they actually want to work along.
I agree; I treat them also like people because, ultimately, I don't treat them for their behaviour because I don't have to. That's why it's not my role. The officers treat people based on behaviour because that's what the justice system does. I don't need to do that. It's fine. The only behaviour stuff that I would always say to people when I follow through on it is that if you are disrespectful or threatening to me, I'm going to end the session. And if it continues, then yeah, I might have to report it. But it's in your best interest that we don't. So, instead, I had one guy that people wouldn’t work with him. He was one of my favourite people to work with. But we worked on a plan. And the plan was that when you feel heightened, I'm going to challenge you because I did. If you can't answer it, you don't answer it. If you need to stop, you just say I've had enough. And we stop. And that's what we did. And he was never abusive to me. And never aggressive. On one meeting with Child Safety, he ended up punching a child safety worker. And that worker was really horrible. And I am not saying that child safety workers are (horrible) because there have been lovely ones, too. But they were really pushing him... and he was great. He went ‘no, I've had enough”. So yeah, I found I found that most of the people who are parents in prison and carers have probably not had good role modelling in their own childhood. So, it's like working with kids all over again.
Could you describe how the boy (that we have been talking about at the beginning) was affected by the unfolding situation?
Yeah, so the six-year-old boy, I think I'm watching him come and visit with his dad when he was, I think he was two (years old). When he used to come in, he loved spending time with his biological dad like he didn't want to get up. He didn't even know it was in a prison setting, and he loved it. And he was really good because his dad is very much one of those people that a child leads. So if the little boy wanted to go and play on the slide, that's what dad would do. They go play on the slide. He literally and he gave him 100% attention. So I could see the bond very quickly. It was definitely happening. It was actually really beautiful. Pity it was in that setting.
So, you were actually witnessing it...
I did. And he wanted to visit Dad; he definitely did. Whether he understood where Dad was or otherwise, he just knew that this man, ‘when I came in there, gave me all this attention’. The bond was there. Very much so.
Every time I talk with people about this (kids visiting prison), they're saying that this is bad and it is so hard to say goodbye...
He wouldn’t care (if that was in prison); he was too small. So, if they keep the bond from the very beginning, I think they're okay. And yes, look, you know what, it's always hard to say goodbye to a parent, but there are ways you can do stuff. So, you talk about an invisible string from my heart to yours; it's always gonna be there. Or you look at the moon, and I look at the moon and say good night. There are cute little ways that we've worked on how to do that, or you know, buy them a special teddy bear, and they look after it for us. So, there's not that separation anxiety. And with this dad, he'd just said, I'll see you again now. So, it was really important to have a structure in those visits. And that was the issue when they were falling down. That structure was falling down. But the bond with the little boy never broke. You wouldn't have known. And I don't know why. Because usually, it would. But he was okay. I think he was just excited to see his dad. And this dad had been able to, for the last, I think, 12 months to have visits outside of the prison location.
Because?
Good behaviour. It’s called sections. So, what happens is when they get so close to parole, they can have sections, and the first slot that you can have, which is a bit further out, is to go to a prisoner-proof location so they'd go to the church and then can be having more time together was, yeah, so they were able to go there. I also think the dead put structure into visits. So, he had, but he was on HIPPY (parenting program) last year with this little one now this year, and so he would do even that whole, Okay, it's time for us to do some schoolwork or fun sit down activities, and then we go outside and run around, and we play. And he'd do that.
That's amazing because this is real parenting.
And every other parent in that visit, when it was inside the prison round, other people would say, you are amazing. Where do you get this stuff? We'd like to do this without kids, blah, blah, blah. Like he's role modelling, he gets to the point where other people's children are gone sit at the table with him. So that's what I mean: he's that kind of dad; he's definitely a kid person. They did the visits at the church. And now he has sections in the community. So, you know, he could make he meets a child, and the rest of the family is slowly being introduced. So, they can go from barbecue in the park to his oldest son's house, who has children around the same age as the little boy, and they can play. And that's still going. And then... you have asked me about the difference in what happened in the care situation. So, an allegation was made that the carer wasn't treating the little boy very well, which came directly out of the little boy's mouth. That's why it became very serious and very fast. The little boy disguised something about the carer there were, and he also had kinship visits with his auntie and started to stay overnight. Yeah, at the auntie's house, where the reunification home will be in the future. So, he was allowed to go and stay there. And he loved his auntie; he also got to build connections with her. And there were some concerns around toileting and that of a six-year-old, like not meeting milestones...
So he was peeing in a bed and not only peeing...
He was pooing in a nappy. So he was a six-year-old and a nappy at nighttime. And I get, you know, it could be some health issues, but all that stuff was ruled out.
Or, related to his psychology, it could be his trauma.
So, I don't know what the situation is... I know that it wasn't anything to do with medical. So yeah, you can only assume it could be trauma, or it could just be that the carer wasn't coping. We've had care team meetings for a very long time.
And I remember the father being involved in that.
Yes.
When we were sitting inside (in prison), and he gave this very short speech, I wanted them to do this, which was very clear.
He is he's very clear. And he's always gone to care team meetings, even if he hadn't seen his child. He never missed a meeting. So, the carer was at a care team meeting. His sister, the child's auntie, was supposed to invite me, but I only got invited occasionally. That's okay. Dad and then the carer also bought a lot of mental health support workers, which I haven't seen happen before. So, I don't I don't know. I didn't get to be on any of those. And that's okay. She can have support workers. But yeah, it was starting to do some red flags. Then, the little boy disclosed something about the carer, and the auntie reported it, as did the dad-to-child safety; these are my concerns. This is what the child says. So, it was taken so seriously because it came directly from the child's mouth. And they must have asked the child to know that that was the case. They removed him instantly. He was put into kinship care with his auntie for a two-week period.
How was it?
I think we're up to four weeks now, and the little boy is saying I'm not leaving my Auntie's. I'm not going back, so he is starting to get heard. And I need to let you know as well. The other thing with the dad. This is how reasonable the dad has been, as he knew he was getting closer to his timeout and reunification. He wanted to arrange with child safety that the carer could see this little boy, at least on a weekend, not every day on a weekend because they're gonna want to do stuff as a family, and that the carers would be invited to things like being able to see him at Christmas and birthdays and special occasions that could be in our school assembly. Either way, it was always open because his belief was, I don't think it's fair on my child to rip them from these people that have helped raise him, and he was really appreciative of that. But unfortunately, they care about that bridge.
So there's no way actually to stay in touch with all of them...
I don't think it will be now, not that there's been an allegation that's apparently I don't know, it looks like it's been justified because the child hasn't been returned and when the child didn’t want to go, and the child when child safety wanted the little boy to go and see the carer recently, the little boy screamed and wouldn't let go of his auntie and said No, he wasn't leaving...
That’s not very healthy.
And all the toileting issues and all have gone away.
Okay, so he's winning. The little boy is winning...
It's a sad case, I think because I think it was a beautiful case. We had carers and dad in custody working together, which is ideal. That's the ideal thing, unfortunately. I had compassion and empathy for that carer, and you think that would be horrible. If you've raised this child for six years, all of a sudden thing, I'm never going to see them again. But that was not going to happen. And that was clearly communicated. And yet, they're not living with you. So, it is different. I get that. That'd be a grief. But I think that, unfortunately, maybe that set off a series of sabotaging behaviours... Because the message that was given to the little boy was then relayed to the father. Mom said this, and this is because kids do... Yeah, I'd say it's sabotage behaviour out of fear.
But again, this is only because the child was exposed to all these people. Yes, Father, to you, too. And so he had people to talk to.
That’s right.
He was aware of the fact that his world is not just foster care; his world is bigger and more complex. So the kid was a tiny kid, very young, and was actually already navigating a pretty complex network. Yeah, so if this network is not there, and if the child is completely on its own in foster care, then he can’t really intervene.
I can give you an example of a bad story if you want to. I worked with a mom who was in custody. Look, she did come in and out when I say she broke her parole; it was based on accommodation; she never blew a piss test or any of that stuff. Everything was negative on the right track. Unfortunately, the combination that she was put in, she was put in a shelter, which is fine because she had no family support, but that went pear-shaped because of some of the rules, and that can be hard for people. She didn't do anything particularly wrong. But, um, she got kicked out. So she ends up back in prison because there's no accommodation, it's like because there's nowhere else to put; I think it's sad that people that are in prison because we have no accommodation. It's a bit ridiculous. So that happened. So, she has two little girls; the two little girls are with the grandmother, in kinship care. The grandmother does not have a good relationship with the mother of the children, her daughter; the relationship is terrible, no matter how many times, and this is over years and years again. And I still work with the mum because she is on HIPPY. And she's been out now for 12 months, got herself a rental property in a healthy relationship with somebody who has never, you know, committed a crime. So she's completely out of that world. But the problem has been... yes, at times, she has broken her trust with the children due to that accommodation. So, the oldest child has been raised by the grandmother for a long time, and the grandmother gives really severely bad messaging to those children about their mother. And I can say honestly does because I had been there when I've been trying to go. Yeah, it's probably not a conversation to have around children. So I've witnessed it all. The oldest child, which is 11. wants nothing to do with mum at the moment because the loyalty is to the grandmother; the youngest child, who is six, adores her mom. She even wanted to move into prison to live with her mom. She was one of the kids who used to get really sad when her parent left. Some of that, I also think, was that there was no structure. So that little girl didn't know the little six-year-old one didn't know when I was going to see Mom again. It might be next week. It might be next month, it might be whatever. So that all happened. The mum was told we worked really, really hard. And her child safety workers, oh my god, they changed so many times. It was phenomenal. We worked really hard on a plan of what she needed to do to increase visits upon release this time round, which has been 12 months. So we understood everything went back to square one again because of the coming in and out. So now she's wholly sentenced to serve; there is no parole. She could do whatever she wanted, and they'd have to catch her, but she's done nothing like she's leading a really healthy life. So, they gave conditions. We got them in writing. I went to every single care team meeting with that one and advocated very hard. The little girl continually said I want to spend more time with mum, they still didn't do it. The plan was that she had to be out and meet with child safety. She got out right on Christmas, so we understood it was going to take until January because child safety shuts down. That’s fine. She did the birthday. They used to get her to do visits with this little girl at different locations, and I'm pretty sure to this day, it's still happening at different locations that cost a lot of money. So going bowling and things like that, this is a month on Centrelink with, like, low income, all that sort of stuff. They wanted her to have a property; she had to have a house with at least a six-month lease. That's happened; she's done all that. She's even gone and got herself a full-time job. Like... she's done amazing. There's still no increase in visits. They promised there would be an increase in visits.
But – why?
They say: resources... don't have the resources. And because the grandmother doesn't want anything to do with the mother, she, again, is preventing it; this is the issue. And then the eldest child, who I have no doubt would love to have a relationship with her mother, won't do it. Because she's doing that thing, just like all kids do, separated stuff if it's not healthy, and they don't know where their loyalty lies. So, she’s torn, and it's not okay like the poor kids. And so yeah, the mom has ticked every box and more, and by this stage, according to the plan, we're 12 months out now. So she's doubled every expectation: they should be having sleepovers. I think we're still at stage one. And we should have been at stage 12 by now. And the sad thing when that happens is when parents start to give up. And then they make poor choices. And that's the case. Now I don't think she will.
To summarise, it's just from your experience why it is important to put all this work into helping these people stay in touch (with their family) and see each other...
There are so many reasons; I think that one is for the child's health.
So, the child's interest.
The child’s interest has to be the highest priority, two - to prevent generational crime, because kids are a bit monkey see monkey do, so, to prevent that.
But, okay, here comes this argument of the, you know, made by some of the correctional staff - saying if kids are allowed to go and those visits are nice, kids are learning that a prison is a nice place. How would you challenge that if?
I challenge that because I think if a child can say that their parent is remorseful and has regrets and what's better for them, which all the parents I've ever worked with - they do. They want better for their children if a child can see that they can make better decisions and better choices in life. And at the end of the day, with the bond between a parent and a child. So, just working in the community services industry, not even working in there (prison), every single child that I ever worked with that was in the system, one way or another, wants to be with their biological parent, even if the biological parent was the most abusive person in the world. So, when we prevent that, they get to a certain age where they rebel, and then they go down the same line. So I think it prevents it. If you keep the bond there, with the parent with good messaging and a good bond, the child will not go down that line.
The argument is that if it's nice in prison, and the father and mother are in prison, the kid is learning to think that prison is a normal part of life. This is the argument. This is not my argument. But this is what is often presented to me...
I think it is like this, like I said to you before, though it depends on the parent if the parent doesn't want to make a change. Sure, if the parent doesn't have remorse and doesn't understand the impact on the kid, or they just don't want to hear it. Yes, sure. That can definitely happen. I've worked with dads in there who wanted better for their kids, but their fathers were in prison. So they remembered every day they could, they'd go in, and they visited and their daddy, get them to, you know, include them in the crime scene where these parents and I've worked with, that's not the case. And if it is the case, the reality of deserts to work with that person as long as they do change.
So – it doesn't matter how pleasant the visit is to prison - it's still not normal, and no one is going to like it...
No, I agree. I agree with you. The visit areas are appalling. Yeah, I'm afraid I have to disagree. I think disconnecting, like in any world, whether it is in custody or not in custody, if a parent is a safe person, and the child wants to see their parent, then we need to make an environment where they can.
So what do you say? Those visits can actually be kind of created with the narrative by people like you to help inmates realise what has to be done and how, so it's not just random. Whatever, nice play, playful playgrounds.
No, it's not.
What I like about the HIPPY program is that it's about work.
It is; it's all about education. Yeah, teaching and giving those guys...
The structure!
But also (as HIPPY does), there are those very specific things to do while spending time with their children.
Make time with the children. That's right, with very specific learning outcomes. Yeah, I agree; the structure is good.
I had a moment of sitting next to you and watching them (in prison during HIPPY training). I thought, like, for example, one of the guys, that he was actually going through those children's books for the first time in his life.
That's right!
That’s right. What you are saying is true. So, whenever I go in there, you've seen I've read a storybook. If there's a storybook, and I read it, I used to be really uncomfortable with doing that because it's not my thing. But I realised now that this is actually not about me. And they all listen...
Like children...
And they all interact because I don't think they've had good role modelling. So, this is why I would argue with people who say that, that if they're visiting their parent, and good role modelling is happening. - you're going to prevent the generational crime, but you're not trying to be glorified (time in prison).
I thought that you were actually acting like a phantom mother not only for them to show how to learn how to read it to the children, but for them... (to hear it).
Their inner child. Yeah. And I agree.
You have mature inmates’ prisoners, but you also have ‘kids’.
Yeah, and I let them play. I agree. That's the whole beauty of it. And there are more programs as well. Like the family integration team. We ran it when I worked in it, and then I knew they were running it to bring up great kids. And it's the same thing: you read a storybook, and the only difference between HIPPY and that one is you get them to choose. And we used to do that. And it was funny because people would choose things like Green Eggs and Ham because it would generate a nice memory. So, not everybody would prefer, and that was when men were in medium and maximum. Not everybody could select because maybe they never had a storybook. Because until you give somebody that experience, they don't understand the importance. So yeah, I would argue against this - don't let children go in there. I think it's ridiculous because it's more harmful. It's that's why you're getting separation anxiety because most of the people in prison are just people who have made a stupid mistake.
There are many reasons for being in prison.
Some people in prison should never have anything to do with children. I'm not saying that I'm not that naive. There are some parents I have worked with that will take many, many years before they have contact with that kid. But if all I can do is get them to make a change and see how their behaviour has impacted so that on that day, when that happens, the child can have a better whether the child's an 18-year-old, it doesn't matter. But that child can have a better experience. That's all I can do.
The last thing I want to understand with the father is that we talk about a lot. The child's mom, the small boy's Mom...
The child's mom has contact with the boy via phone; I don't think that might be Zoom. She's on the mainland.
Is there any chance that they can reunite?
She might come down on holidays and stuff, potentially. I have met with her, too. She was in some care team meetings and stuff like that. So, she was interested in her son. But also, I think her life has changed. And it is for the better. But so much so that I think she probably will never return to Tasmania.
So, she and the boy’s father are in a friendly relationship...
Yeah, very much. He is very supportive of her and her life because she has turned it around. He would prefer she had more to do with her son, but he also understands that she's got a different life now. So I'm not saying that she won't be involved with the boy, but I know that she probably can't have him in her full care, and she's always said to the dad, I'm happy for our son to be with you. And then, because of the auntie, he has a good female role model.
